Curse

zwei2stein · Sep 13, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Society

Battle hammers are good choice too). Well, helm most likely won't protect user from any good blunt weapon.

Battle hammers usually had spike so that you could pierce armor as finishing move as well in same style like

---

Yang Whirlwind:

* Flander city milita vs. french kinghts at Courtray. Prefect example.
* Swiss milita vs. Light Calvary pretty much everywhere.
* Krestchack

etc. It was not rare, It was not anything special. Knights were obsolete because noone with brain continued to face them in meele manno-i-manno. Firearms, New tactics. How the hell can you claim that knights were not "Obsolete".

Hell, they were obsolete before. Compare price of one standard issue knight and price of dozen drafted peasants with halberds. Compare who will win.

Oh, and hussites faced quite huge sellsword armies too. Don't get all your facts from wikipedia. Look up articles on subject you are good at, that should help.

"And the knight peasants milling about are just going to let them do that,- right?"
- Yes, they have no choice. What are they going to do, beg them to stop it?

"Yeah - because when the nobles levied their peasants, they always fought from fortifications! You are talking about a tactics that were not widely used."
- Wanna back that up? Nobles leviyng their own peasants, etc. (School paper: hilarious.)

I urge you to try putting on heavy plate armor, preferably jousting one and having friend try to hit your skin with pole which has wet pain on it so that you can see how many hit he can score before you get to range. Then get some more friends and do same.

Society · Sep 13, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Battle hammers usually had spike so that you could pierce armor as finishing move as well in same style like

Well, it's doesnt really matter what shatters soldier's skull: hammer or his own helm). But spikes are very usefull too, I agree.

P.S. As for now, me with one of my most engineer-like (heh...) friends are triyng together to design effective modern warscythe. Yes, it's differs from GW ones.

Yang Whirlwind · Sep 13, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

zwei2stein - it seems you are trying to pull examples that all come from centuries later than the period I am talking about.
To clarify in case you missed it: I'm talking about 12.th-14.th century!

Battle of Courtrai (you misspelled it)

Quote:

The Flemish were primarily town militia who were well equipped, with such weapons as the Goedendag and a long spear known as the Geldon. They were also well organized; the urban militias of the time prided themselves on their regular training and preparation, which allowed them to use the Geldon effectively. They numbered about 9,000, including 400 nobles. The biggest difference from the French and other feudal armies was that the Flemish force consisted solely of infantry.

The French were by contrast a classic feudal army made up of a core of 2,500 nobles cavalry, including knights and squires. They were supported by 1,000 crossbowmen, 1,000 spearmen and up to 3,500 other light infantry, totaling around 8,000. Contemporary military theory valued each knight as equal to roughly ten infantry.

Not really peasants were it?

Vs light cavalry? Since when did full blown knights have anything to do with light cavalry?

Krestchack? No idea what you are talking about - and neither does Google for that matter!

Firearms? It's not really relevant to talk about firearms in these centuries - wouldn't you agree?

Summing up:

I am not talking about heavy cavalry, but the original knights who had the training and backup to be formidable opponents on any battle field of the three centuries I am talking about.

I am not talking about the later definition of knight or after firearms changed the ways wars were waged forever!

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

- Wanna back that up? Nobles leviyng their own peasants, etc. (School paper: hilarious.)

That was how it worked in the feudal system! The knight was the local lord and it was his right to levy the locals (farmers etc.) when he saw fit on behalf of the Crown of course!

A Leprechaun · Sep 13, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Knights with battle hammers? Halberds? Swords? Spears? The poleaxe says hi.

~A Leprechaun~

Richardt · Sep 14, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Society

No, I mean halberd). And I know that it's an axe's evolution. We talking 'bout blade's orientation an possiblity of effective fighting with perpendicular blade orientation if you already forgot.

But the diff. between a scythe and the axe is that the scythe blade is elongated with the cutting edge on the inside-which makes it impratical. Axes work due to the orientation of the cutting edge, which is in line with the haft, just displaced.

And good that you're working on seeing how a war scythe would be like. Building medieval weapons and armor is fun challenge and a good hobby. Kept me sane through undergrad and my first years of grad school

A Leprechaun · Sep 14, 2008, 10:25 AM // 10:25

A scythe would not be chosen as a weapon.Iif you didn't have anything else appropriate then you might as well use it, swinging a large, sharp blade wildly is bound to do some damage.

~A Leprechaun~

Abedeus · Sep 14, 2008, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Leprechaun

A scythe would not be chosen as a weapon.Iif you didn't have anything else appropriate then you might as well use it, swinging a large, sharp blade wildly is bound to do some damage.

~A Leprechaun~

Too bad that once you swing, it's hard to stop it. And if an ally is close and your target dodges/you miss, "friendly slash" is inevitable.

Iuris · Sep 14, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Having actually scythed down quite some grass myself, I'd say the scythe would not be the first farm implement to use as a weapon.

For one thing, the farming scythe is not sturdily made. In order to scythe grass, the blade shall ideally cut a very thin swathe as parallel to the ground as possible while not straining the back. This means the handle is not just one stick but has two handles, one offset from the handle. This makes the scythe easy to scythe with but does not allow the wider range on motions needed in combat.

Also, the scythe's blade is not firmly attached to the handle, but rather is offset by an inch or two of metal, and the blade is turned so as to allow easier cutting parallel to the ground. This of course means the scythe is relatively weakly attached to the handle.

Don't misunderstand me: a scythe would be useful as a weapon. Just not a good weapon. To make it into a workable weapon, a scythe would have to be reworked into what is essentially a long spear.

In the end, the average farmer will have better options available. Primarily, the axe/pick (much greater striking power and much stronger construction) and the pitchfork if polearm type weapon is needed.

bhavv · Sep 15, 2008, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Scythed Chariot?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythed_chariot

I remember those from Age of Empires.

zwei2stein · Sep 15, 2008, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

Firearms? It's not really relevant to talk about firearms in these centuries - wouldn't you agree?

My Favorite religious freaks did use then back then. And their use in europe was well documented since 1250's.

(ps: Battle of Crécy)

(ps: heavy calvary = knights)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

That was how it worked in the feudal system! The knight was the local lord and it was his right to levy the locals (farmers etc.) when he saw fit on behalf of the Crown of course!

And then had had no source of money, could not afford to support their liege lord, etc ... Where do you think their living came from? Peasants! They needed them alive and working as hard as they could make em.

Because he could do it does not mean he really would do something more than hang few troublemakers which was enough anyway.

You are Knight and you are in controll of ~ 4 villages totaling about hundred people. How much levying you think you can do before you start running out of money? Every person killed, every building burned down, etc, is loss of valuable property and loss of income.

Yang Whirlwind · Sep 15, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

My Favorite religious freaks did use then back then. And their use in europe was well documented since 1250's.

And when did hand held firearms (not cannons) become standard enough to have a wide impact on warfare? You are talking about bulky hand held cannons here, not muskets!
We are in the 15.th-16.th century before firearms see any widespread use in armies across Europe.
And even cannons were not that common before the 15.th century.
Remember that it was not really the cannon, but hand held firearms that finally saw the end of the knight's usefulness in battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

(ps: heavy calvary = knights)

No! I am not taking about standard heavy cavalry (as we know them from later centuries). I am taking about the noble knights: trained since birth for battle or those given titles because of military career!

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

And then had had no source of money, could not afford to support their liege lord, etc ... Where do you think their living came from? Peasants! They needed them alive and working as hard as they could make em.

Because he could do it does not mean he really would do something more than hang few troublemakers which was enough anyway.

You are Knight and you are in controll of ~ 4 villages totaling about hundred people. How much levying you think you can do before you start running out of money? Every person killed, every building burned down, etc, is loss of valuable property and loss of income.

Yes! But when an invading army (we are taking war here) is threatening you borders, you tend to think about keeping people alive first and the harvest later. 4 small villages with only 100 men of arms bearing age would constitute a very small fiefdom in any century and in any country.

SirSausage · Sep 15, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe

Yep, they had been used a long time ago.
It had a straight blade, was two-handed and very big.

A Leprechaun · Sep 15, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Too bad that once you swing, it's hard to stop it. And if an ally is close and your target dodges/you miss, "friendly slash" is inevitable.

Your a poor farmhand, you can take the scythe into battle or a stick from the hedge, your choice. I'd choose the scythe.

~A Leprechaun~

Society · Sep 17, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

OK, first variant of our scheme is ready (russian comments, sorry):

Even more - 3D render (no sound yet): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q19oe6ga6xQ

Society · Sep 18, 2008, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Well, I'm going to order prototype, but... still unsure 'bout stabilization after strike.

Society · Oct 07, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Come my thread,
Rise to your Mistress...

New scythe video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQSYT9_bqMw
Kinda stupid, but anyways.